Intro (00:01):

Welcome to practiceOmatic, where doctors and practice owners share business, lifestyle and marketing stories all while guiding you to more patients. Here's your host, Zach

Zack G. (00:12):

I am Zack Greenfield. Welcome back to practiceOmatic, I'm Zach Greenfield, your host. And today we have with us Dr. Colleen Smith, who is a graduate of Ross university and has been practicing integrative medicine since 2005. She is a certified veterinary acupuncturist through the international veterinary and veterinary acupuncture society, and has a special interest in dietary therapy using principles of traditional Chinese veterinary food medicine. She is also a certified chiro practitioner, and recently she passed the torch and she was now, and she is now the past president to the American holistic veterinary medical association, which is the national association for holistic veterinarians. And she served as president from 2020 to 2021. And in new news, Dr. Smith has helped launch Chatan neuter, a new low cost spay neuter clinic in Chatanooga Chatanooga Tennessee. And Dr. Smith is also in her free time, an avid whitewater kayaker and yoga practitioner. And she's also enjoys hiking with her two dogs scout, a cattle dog board colleague mix, and Hank E lab door Greyhound mix. Welcome to practice nomadic Dr. Colleen, how are you?

Dr. Smith (01:44):

I'm great, Zach,

Zack G. (01:45):

How are you? I'm doing, I'm doing awesome. And I well, for one, I wanna just like, let's just jump into chat and neuter for one. I wanna just think let's talk about the name who came up with the name.

Dr. Smith (01:58):

Well, senator's a couple years old, but our area was in need, have a low cost SP neuter clinic mm-hmm <affirmative> and it, we have a small board. I'm the vet on the board and we have a accountant and some people with experience with shelter work. So one of the woman who actually is kind of founded the, the practice, the clinic came up with a name Chatan so we thought it was

Zack G. (02:26):

Awesome. That's super fun. And so your role there is you're on the board mm-hmm <affirmative> and what does that mean when you're on the board of another, you know, practice? Like how, how is it that you serve them and how does that work?

Dr. Smith (02:40):

So I don't actually practice in the clinic. There are veterinarians who do the space in Nere, so I'm just on the it's basically advisory. Okay. So if anything kind of happens and the doctors have any questions or anything, I kind of help out give them some ideas and advice and we just it's a 5 0 1, 3 C, so it's not for profit. So, you know, we don't get paid or anything like that, but we just kind of make sure we work on, we get grants for different things. And we try to help with the, the area where, you know, we work with the military a lot. We look, we work with veteran veterans. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative> the police department, fire department, all these people who need some extra help with just basic spay neuter, some vaccine type thing. So,

Zack G. (03:24):

And let me healthy area. So it's not, these are not necessarily like like animal, like rescues or kennel. How would you say that? They're not like dogs off the street. These are dogs that are, that are pets and, and cats that are pets.

Dr. Smith (03:41):

Both. Both. So yes, people do own them. Okay. And we also work with some shelters. So especially if like there's a group, we usually have something called the rescue wagon. It comes through, they drop off six dogs. We, we ne them, they go back to the shelter and then that rescue wagon goes up north, ah, and two takes the dogs up there. The shelters up there, a lot of the states at north had a little bit tighter laws, licensing laws, FA ne laws. And so their shelters aren't as full as ours. So we send a lot of rescue animals up north. 

Zack G. (04:14):

I see. Okay, cool. So, yeah, that's interesting though. So it's cool. So, so it's a charity and you're on the advisory board, so it's not like mm-hmm <affirmative> I was asking that question cause I was wondering, are these guys, is it like competitive or non-competitive, but clearly it's not a good community service piece for everybody there that needs to access bay and ne services at a low cost. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about your practice. What's happening down there and how's, COVID been, and where are we at at, and, you know describe what's happening for you.

Dr. Smith (04:45):

We stayed open through the whole 2020 we, we went curbside, so, but we stayed open. I did let some people take the option to take off and kind of get some, you know, unemployment at that time. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> but we, and we were fairly busy. We just had to be really careful. Definitely just making sure everybody stayed safe and that kind of stuff. Since we use a lot of ozone, we actually had an ozone machine that we turned on every night, cuz ozone kills viruses. Yeah, there you go. We always, you know, cleaned everything we're we did go, we did let people back in a couple months ago and then the big surge. And so we're curbside again, but we're just rolling with the punches. So it's not, not too bad. Tell

Zack G. (05:30):

Me for, for folks there in Tennessee, you know, around your practice, your, your clients, how did they react to the changes and how did you handle, you know, working in and communicating and educating them

Dr. Smith (05:46):

As far as that being like herbicide? Yeah,

Zack G. (05:48):

Just the, well, the overall procedural changes with, you know, bringing their animals in and everything that was involved. How did it, how did it go and like, did you get friction? Was there pushback? I mean

Dr. Smith (06:00):

The herbicide wasn't pushback for me particularly, cause I mostly do. I have two other veterinarians and one of 'em does mostly all my surgeries and that kind of thing. So I am strictly mostly the alternative vet. So my appointments last an hour. So that was a little tougher my clients, but cuz I spend a lot of face to face time with them. They're not in like five minutes and five minutes out and I'm like here fluffy, here's your shot. Bye, bye. See you later. Gotcha. it was, you know, I sit down and talk about nutrition for like 15 minutes and how, how this connects with your animal's health and how it's connecting with the skin and mm-hmm, <affirmative> all this kind of stuff. And then how we can integrate things that we do medication and herb, do we do acupuncture and laser, do we do, you know, ozone therapy?

Dr. Smith (06:42):

So that was a little bit tougher, especially with my new clients. I do get a lot of clients from Chatanooga sort of two hours away from Nashville, Atlanta, Knoxville, Montgomery. So I'm kind of like a, we're like a hub. Okay. And so I get clients from there a lot and so they drive all the way over to see or me and they sit in my parking lot <laugh> and I talk to 'em on the phone, so I don't really get any pushback. I get a lot of people like I'm kind of disappointed that I can't see you. Yeah. And I'm like, I'm really sorry. There will be a time when we can, you know, see each other. Sure, sure. The curb side wasn't the bad part when we reopened and still required mask that we got interesting. They're like, well you're, they're like, you're holistic. Why do we have to wear a mask? And I'm like, <laugh> I said, there's actually stats that say, you know, human flu and strep throat went down by 70 to 80% last year. So the masks O obviously did something. Sure. So we need, we have 15 people you need to keep, you know? Yeah. Cause you all wanna be there, but we wanna keep 'em healthy.

Zack G. (07:43):

Yeah. Yeah. And you wanna be there tomorrow? I mean that, I think that's the biggest thing is, you know, it's, it's one thing, you know, if something, you know, gets spread, but it's another thing that suddenly the whole practice has to shut down. Yeah.

Dr. Smith (07:56):

Yeah. So that, and to me it's the mask is not that bad to give a deal. I mean, my brother, my sister-in-law were both in the military and you know, she, my sister-in-law was in Iraq. She had thing, people shooting at her, she flew a helicopter. I'm like, I can wear a little mask. It's not that hard. That's not that big of

Zack G. (08:12):

A deal. No, it's not. It's definitely not. And so, so it sounds like it's interesting though. I, I asked that question cuz there's like, you know, obviously it's her current and we're all sort of dealing with these different shifting things. And one of the, you know, the popups with that is that you just it's like a Mo it was like a moving target. Like you said, you, you sort of were curbside. Then you were back now you're back to curbside again. What do you, what do you think, are you gonna stick with offering that in an ongoing way? Or what, where do you see that sort of going in the next, you know, six to 12 months depending

Dr. Smith (08:47):

We're gonna hybrid? We, we found that it made us much more efficient. Oh, okay. It, the hard part is with acupuncture. We don't, we don't knock animals. We don't Ize animals to acupuncture. They just sit and it's great, but they can't move around. So someone needs to kind of hold fluffy, still got it. And it was easier to have owners do that. And then we, then we lose tech time because a technician has to sit there for 20 minutes. So there's, we now have figured out there's there's cases that the owner can just sit in the, a car and then there's some like, especially new clients when I wanna see them and talk to them. They can come in. So we're sort of almost not requiring, but we're changing kind of, we're gonna have more drop off cases. And then, you know, we're gonna kind of push more to that, that if the owner doesn't need to be in, if there are rechecks, right, they don't really that they don't need to be in there so we can see more patients and we can flow better. It did make a huge difference in our flow. It did a huge difference. So yeah. So we're gonna high, we're gonna make several, quite a few different modalities now that are just gonna be drop offs.

Zack G. (09:50):

Oh, wow. So you're gonna ask that. That's the way that it's done. Yeah. Yeah. I see. Okay. That's it. I mean, I think that's, you know, this is the, this is the reason I ask all these questions cuz not, everybody's got it figured out and everybody's weighing these different, you know, sort of factors if you will. And then you, you know, what working you sort of, I think that's an interesting, this is the first time, by the way, I've heard, I've heard hybrid, but hybrid at the client's discretion, you're saying hybrid, but hybrid at the sort of service level mm-hmm <affirmative> yeah. Yeah. Well, that's a cool approach. I mean, I, I see the

Dr. Smith (10:31):

Value and they're already prepped and they get, and they get it. So I think us asking for it now for certain mm-hmm <affirmative>, you know, treatment treatments that we do they're they're already used to it. So it's, we've kind of, they've already been prepped, so it's not like from now on right.

Zack G. (10:44):

Stay in your car. Well, I love that. I love that because one of the things I've been trying to uncover and I think, you know, is, is the value in COVID <laugh> that's makes any sense, you know, like what are we gonna come out of this it's actually gonna make us better. Like, what's the, you know, cause hard times usually mean you get better become better because you gotta adapt like, you know, financial crisis, you get lean, you watch payroll. So then that kind of sticks with you for the rest of your business career. And we go through this, what are the things that are gonna stick that make us better, more efficient? And so you found a one which is great news, you know, it kind of makes all the blood, sweat and tears maybe worth it. Yeah. So tell, tell me about tell, tell me about your attraction to Eastern medicine and what you know, and the, the pivot from going to traditional veterinary school and then finding your way to where you are now.

Dr. Smith (11:42):

So I, I mean, I still do conventional stuff, but I found that and, and this is how some, this is what I love about my group <laugh> cause I was just there talking to them, you know, tribal knowledge mm-hmm <affirmative> is they really kinda help you understand that conventional medicine is really, really, really good with acute stuff. You know, if you break your leg, you want someone with acupuncture, needles, just sitting there for 30 minutes, sticking needles in you sure. But if you have a chronic disease, like you have this arthritis and you can't take non-steroidals and you have a reaction to something that if it's, you know, has a logic effect or something like that, mm-hmm <affirmative> what are your options? Especially if even surgery's not an option, acupuncture is amazing. And some of these other modalities, our laser works really good and we rehab and that kind of stuff.

Dr. Smith (12:23):

Right. So what I found is, and really more of your medicine now is getting more into Chi, more into chronic medicine than acute there's great emergency clinics. And there's a great human ERs, but when it comes, that's where we are getting all our side effects. That's where we're getting secondary issues with long term use of drugs. So I found that the more I learned about acupuncture and herbs even if it wasn't traditional Chinese medicine, like our laser are OS and all that kind of stuff, it works for really, really well for our chronic medicine animals, because it's just, we're kind of eliminating these side effects, eliminating in, you know, contraindication with drugs. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> that they can't take anything. So, right. And in general, one thing I learned about it is in, in this traditional Chinese veterinary medicine is the first thing they do over there.

Dr. Smith (13:12):

How we learn 4,000 years ago is nutrition was number one. Yeah. America, we loved to put needles and everything. So nutrition was the first thing then herbs then acupuncture. And so I really, really relearned, you know, about nutrition and how important that is and how basement, you know, that is the basement foundation of the health where that always has always has to be a, a discussion. You know, even if fluffy comes in with skin issue, they're like, why are you talking about food? And I'm like, we can't do anything with the skin if we don't talk about food. Right.

Zack G. (13:42):

So, yeah. And it, I mean, as a, where do you feel the sort of average pet diet is on a scale of one to 10 in the United States right now? Mm-Hmm <affirmative>

Dr. Smith (13:53):

So <laugh>, yeah, I'm gonna step on the, some landmines here, but I'm not a huge fan of commercial food. The pro it's so highly processed. Right. And I tell people, yeah, we can live off of pop tarts in Quin, Twinkies and pizza for a while, but we're sick, right? Yeah. For a while, but we we're sick, you know? And so with this processed food, high heat processing creates advanced gly and end products advanced it's a Mayard reaction, advanced location end products are cancer agents, cancer causing agents. So every bag of dog food or cat food, that's dry, the cheapy cheapy bag and the super expensive bag. If they're all high heat process, 450 degrees at four for four hours, they all have the advancedly end products in it. So I see it's, it's just, you know, they, they tell you now, if you grill your chicken, the little, those char lines are advanced dication and products.

Dr. Smith (14:44):

I see those are cancer causing compounds. So, and I know everybody loves, I mean, I love my little crispy eggs. Yes. even that, so that's, that's the big part is that we need to go, who are we feeding? We, we are not feeding, they're not omnivores. These guys are facul. The dogs are facul of carnivores. Right. So they need a really good quality protein, really good quality fat. And you really can't really get a good healthy fat. And then something that's been high heat process and sitting in a bag for six years, that oil is right. Yeah. So we just gotta kind of sit back and kind of figure out where the most ideal diet is, who are we feeding? You know, making sure they're, it's balanced. That's the biggest thing to me cuz you know, I have colleagues who are like, you're killing the dog with, you know, chicken and rice. I'm like, I'm not feeding it chicken rice. It is a balanced diet. It's got the vitamin in me. It's got the whole, yeah. You know, I, what the phosphorous level is, I know what the calcium is. I know what the zinc, magnesium, Magne, Magne, you know, all this kind of stuff that's in the diet. I want to make sure that it's balanced. I see

Zack G. (15:41):

It's yeah. So I mean, I knew that wasn't gonna be a good news question, but I had to ask because <laugh>, you know, I mean, I think it's pretty obvious that the, you know, the pet food kibble sort of, I don't know when that started, but I, my guess would be in the, you know, sixties or whatever in seventies when the boom of processed food sort of happened for humans as well. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> and we got into this sort of efficiency model and TV dinners and all that things sort of started popping. And it seems like nobody's out there really advocating for animals on the out as much as we're starting to advocate on the human side, there there's less of a movement, I think, you know?

Dr. Smith (16:19):

Yeah. I mean the, I mean the kibble I've been to the, you know, one of the big companies has a tour for veterinarians every year and a lot of they bring the vets in and it comes out like the pink slime. Like I won't mention the brand, but those nugget nuggets yeah. Come out like pink slime and they're molded into the shape and then whatever flavored stuff is sprayed on it.

Zack G. (16:40):

Yeah. I get it. I get it. I mean, well, you know, let's, let's, let's juxtapose that let's sort of tilt that, you know, sort of traditional pet market and you're in Tennessee in health and you decide you're gonna introduce this Eastern progressive holistic, you know, services at your clinic. Was there resistance or was it a, a huge job in educating your clientele in public? Like how did that start? I mean, I can't imagine it was received with open arms when you started <laugh>.

Dr. Smith (17:18):

Yes. it was very varied. There's some people who came to me asking for it, you know, my neighbor's dog, they changed the diet. They just, it had all these things and they decided to change the diet themselves and it did better mm-hmm <affirmative> so I wanna try it too. And so there someone, some people do come to me that they want to try this. But there's the people who come to me and their animal has, you know, chronic skin stuff for five years. And I'm like, I can't do, I literally I'm at that point age and timeframe at this point where I'm kind of like, I can't do anything for you unless you change the diet, your dog zones, steroids and antibiotics, and all the chemotherapy, the skin drugs. Right. If those aren't working, you don't really have any other options, but one change the diet.

Dr. Smith (18:04):

Right. and when I go through like patient of, of the, what the diet's doing for the pet and why is, why is it so important? This is where my one hour appointment comes from. People pretty much, almost everybody there's always a range are like, I get it now. I, I kind of, I see how this, how much effect it has and I kind of get it and they're willing to at least change it. Even if there's a big, you see, you still see question mark over their head, Dean. Yeah. I'm not sure about this, but I'll try it because you gave me enough information that I'm gonna, you know, make an effort.

Zack G. (18:36):

I got it. So how many, how many years now? So cuz you've been in that area since so five, so 17 years or so mm-hmm <affirmative> at what point in that timeline, did you start, are moving towards this integrative offering?

Dr. Smith (18:56):

I actually, it was kind of weird, but since I did go to Ross, I don't know if you know anything now it's, Ross's a us school, but it's outta the country. So it's in St. Kit. So our clinics are in the states. So I came back to the states and I did my clinics at Auburn cuz they don't, they just don't have, or didn't then at the time it's a little bit different now mm-hmm <affirmative> the facilities for a hundred students to go through clinics. They just didn't have the facilities for all those clinics. And so I actually worked did an ex externship at a clinic, a kind of a holistic clinic in Atlanta, Georgia, ah, was close to Auburn. Okay. I spent two weeks there. And then at the end of my year, when I graduated, they offered me an internship ish kind of to work there with them.

Dr. Smith (19:41):

So right out of the gate, I went right into a clinic that did in integrative medicine. So I was doing surgery and my next appointment was the doctor's like, here's a picture of a dog, hit a needle here, here, here, here, and here. All right. Go in the room. And I'm like, okay. <Laugh> okay. So I'm still, I was still trying to like get my conventional medicine and I'm like, what are the, what's the drug for this? And what's the antibiotic for this? And then my, the owner of the practice is like, okay, here's the dog. You're gonna here. Put the needles in. And I'm like, okay, switch, switch, tried tier and then try something different. So I started right outta gate doing both.

Zack G. (20:15):

So you, so it's interesting. Yeah. That is cuz it's not what I've heard from others, you know? Yeah. I think others, other doctors I've talked to have found their way there to some degree out of frustration with traditional Western medicine, which I'm sure you hear.

Dr. Smith (20:35):

Yeah, I hear that's what I mostly hear when I talk, when I just coming back from talking to people for five days, it's either the really young students who I meet. I used to be on the house of delegates for the, a BMA actually and students would come to me and they're like, we really wanna start an alternative club, but we don't really know how mm-hmm <affirmative> they're already kind of seeing the benefits of it. And then it's the, I've been around the old school, old school, old guy. Who's like, I've been doing this and nothing's really working anymore. So Hey, let's see what a needle does an acupuncture needle does. Right. So yeah. It's kind of a range.

Zack G. (21:09):

Yeah. So people are kind of, do you feel like folks that are coming out of school now are more receptive to opening themselves up to this type of approach to treating animals? Or do you think that schools are still pretty close minded group out into the field?

Dr. Smith (21:30):

I think it's getting busi bigger. It's fuzzer around the edges and I, but I think they are more like this, Dr. Soandso down the street. Does this, I don't know anything about it, but I'll just send you there if you're interested, which is kind of what I hear most of the time mm-hmm <affirmative> I haven't, it's been a long time since I've heard, you know, acupuncture's a bunch of baloney and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. There aren't any studies which actually there's more studies done in acupuncture than any other medical modality in the whole world. There's thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of studies done. Yeah. Well it's been

Zack G. (22:04):

Around for a while, but

Dr. Smith (22:05):

A bit. Yeah. So yeah, I mean I think right now it's they might not OB, I mean, since I started here, there was, there was only one other doctor. And then at this point, 17 years later, there's seven practices that have acupuncturists. So it was kind of like, you know, was it, they first, they laugh at you and then they kind of, you know, agree with you. And then they're like, okay, now they finally accept you. I got it. And apparently enough that they sent all a veterinarian from their practice to go to acupuncture school <laugh>

Zack G. (22:34):

There you go.

Dr. Smith (22:35):

So, yeah. So I'm kinda like, Hmm,

Zack G. (22:37):

Well that kind of takes, takes us over to my favorite topic, which is growth and marketing. And tell me, you know, has this, has having this part of your practice been an area of strength or has been something that the, that you've had to carry and how does that play out in your outreach and your messaging about the practice and so forth?

Dr. Smith (23:01):

It's been an area of strength, for sure, for sure. Cuz I worked in two practices in Chatanooga just in conventional practices offering acupuncture, but the other veterinarians were kind of like, sure you can go. So when I finally opened my practice 10 years ago, a little over 10 years ago a lot of people who already knew what I did and who I did just kind of followed me there. So I first, you know, I was warn that I'd be watching the paint dry, but the first day I was open, I didn't have enough staff

Zack G. (23:35):

<Laugh> oh, that's so awesome. So

Dr. Smith (23:37):

It was great. There was three of us. So we were like running around like crazy people, but which was great. It's just it's so client driven, so, and yeah, I'm sure, I mean my best friend's in California and she does all alternative and you know, she's booked out months. Right. And I'm not booked out months, but it's still doing, I have to do both here. Got it. I think it, but it also helps me keep help with other, how the conventional modalities are done. If I have a cancer patient, then I like really cut back on the vaccines or don't do vaccines. I'm like this dog has a giant liver tumor. It's 14. It doesn't, you know? Yeah. So I kind of have a little more control over that kind of stuff. And so that's, you know, I get it. So

Zack G. (24:22):

It supports itself. Yeah. So, well that's good to here and I mean, you know, and that's an important like question that pops in. I think anybody's mind that's listening right now is like, okay, all this is great, but is it gonna drag, you know, financially on the practice, if I try to roll something like this in, if I'm con contemplating adding this into the business mix, so what you're saying, and you're in a, you know, conservative Southern mm-hmm <affirmative> state and it turns out people are pretty receptive to this.

Dr. Smith (24:54):

Yeah, yeah. It definitely supports itself. And as a veterinarian, I mean, other than the schooling, which, you know, it's not that much more than, you know, someone taking a bunch of classes to be a, an advanced ultrasound, whatever you call them. Acupuncture needles are like $10 for a pack of a thousand. Right. So th that's, you know, <laugh> a lot of patients that's like, you know, 90 patients or something, if you're just so it's the overhead for acupuncture especially is, is cheap. Right. Pretty cheap anyway. So, so it's more the, it

Zack G. (25:29):

Makes it's more in the labor and the time and the console, it sounds like.

Dr. Smith (25:32):

Yeah. I mean, it is something that I have to do. So there's a lot of things that you wanted that your technician technician can do. Laser connect technician can do my ozone. They can like prep all the stem cell do stem cell stuff, but I have to do the acupuncture for sure. But once they're they have needles in, I can walk away and the technician holds a dog or the owner's holding the dog. Right. So

Zack G. (25:50):

Right. I got that. I got that. Yeah. So, I mean, I think, I think that's interesting. I think that's the concern though. Cause I think, you know, I've definitely talked to some of the vets and they they're like thinking about dabbling or thinking about offering it and so forth, but it's, you know, there's always that, you know, it kind of comes down their business decision, you know, is there, is there clients out there that want this service despite, you know, that's the thing that's tricky about veterinary medicine. It's like, it could be great for the dog and you, you can know that. And many other doctors can know that, but you have to get through the owner.

Dr. Smith (26:26):

It always goes back to education. Yeah. I mean, if you kind of, if you help them understand what it does. I mean, I do talk about the science behind it cuz the PHC fibers and the sea harbors going to the brain and you know, there's adults, 70% of your acupuncture points are at the neurovascular bundle. And that neurovascular bundle is stimulated. It's been, they look at it under electron microscope. They can actually see the stimulation going up the spinal cord and mm-hmm <affirmative>, you know, affects the dynorphins in KES. The endorphins, like there's three different types of endorphins. I didn't even know that one's coming from your brain. One comes from the spinal cord. One comes from those spots. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> and when you explain stuff to clients like how it actually blocks pain, how it actually stimulates certain immunoglobulins, then clients are kind of like, okay. And doctors will under doctors understand. I mean, when you go to acupuncture school, it's not like voodoo du doll. I mean it's, it's not, you know, unicorns and skitles,

Zack G. (27:21):

I'm glad you're saying that out loud because I think so on people in their mind, that's the picture they have. And I'm glad you just cleared that for us right here on, on the show because I think, no, I think people think that, you know, they think like, ah, you know, it's like whatever chewy, but you know, you're, you're quickly letting letting me know and letting us all know that, you know, there's a lot going on, you know, with the whole thing in turn of the, you know, biology and all this signal processing mm-hmm <affirmative> yeah. It's, it's, it's fascinating. You know, and, and I think though, you're right. I think like from a business standpoint, though, it comes down to education. So what, what are some of the things you gotta do down at the practice with outreach and, and education and like, and I mean that, I want to frame that question specifically.

Zack G. (28:05):

So not when somebody's in front of you and you're talking to them, what are you doing to raise awareness in the community about this type of treatment? Whether it be, you know, for, for pet specifically, of course. I mean, what, what, what are the things you think you could do or could do better or, or what's happening with? Cause I think this is like, to me, I read this Colleen is sort of, and especially when you started, this was sort of like your unique value proposition, if you will. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> you know, and so then it's, it's sort of like, okay, well how do you put a spotlight on that? So I'd love to hear, you know, what you've done or what you'd like to do.

Dr. Smith (28:46):

So do you mean spotlight in the, just for a specific client when they're in the room or spotlight in the community?

Zack G. (28:51):

No. In the community that this is something that's available and that can be a, a huge, you know, benefit for animals.

Dr. Smith (28:58):

Well, I mean, we do have a website that really explains our mission mm-hmm <affirmative> and I think that's very important. Some veterinarians don't really, they just like, this is our services and this is our doctor. Okay. And I'm like, you need to put your mission down that, you know, you're really, you're serving the animal, the whole health of this animal and what that means. And that we're, you're looking at all the modalities. I mean, I talk about we, I go like, this is how we're gonna modify your vaccines. This is how we're gonna modify the fleet. Tech heartworm stuff you're doing is how we're gonna modify their diet. This is how we're gonna, we're like, we're gonna look at everything. That's what holistic, holistic is such a hokey word, but that's all we got. <Laugh> right. I gotcha. Man, holistic diet. I'm like really? What does that mean? But yeah, we just I mean, we do have a really good website. We did some in the very beginning, we did do some advertising mm-hmm <affirmative> and people kind of do think now that we're just kind of holistic just means alternative. We, and we don't do you do regular stuff? Yeah. We do regular stuff. So, but

Zack G. (29:57):

That's, that's kind of a flip flop that you would anticipate. So now <affirmative> because you're doing, this is sort of your passion clearly and your focus now you've almost become known as always doing this. And so maybe yeah, maybe they can't help my dog who just broke its leg. <Laugh>

Dr. Smith (30:14):

Yeah. Yeah. I know that. That's a huge question. And sometimes it surprises me and it's, but it's always after the educate and this is like I do vets come to my practice for their 40 hours when you take the acupuncture courses, mm-hmm <affirmative> you have to do 40 hours hands on in a, a clinic that does acupuncture. So I spend 40 hours and they're like, I can't believe how much you talk to the owner. I'm like, I can't believe how much you don't. Right. if they're not gonna do anything, you lose client compliance like 10 times over. If they don't understand why and how and what they're doing. Right. And when I explain, you know, the acupuncture or the medicine or whatever we're doing, my compliance is through the roof. The people that come back for rechecks mm-hmm <affirmative>, they're like, yeah.

Dr. Smith (31:01):

You know, we have the, do all the vaccines right now because they're never gonna come back. I'm like, I tell them to come back four weeks from now for the next shot, instead of doing 'em all on the same day. Yeah. They're still in getting vaccines and they come, they, they all come. I'm like, just do it as a tech tech appointment, come in, they'll give fluffy her little shot and you can walk right out the door. Right. And they're like, okay. And then I under, I explained to them why that's worked better for this little white, fluffy dog who had a horrible vaccine reaction. So I'm like, let's split them. Let's separate them. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> so we can really reduce your dog's vaccine reaction. Right. And when I explain what we're doing, you know, I have new technicians that come from other practices and they're like, you can't do that. You have to do everything at once. I'm like, eh, eh, <affirmative>, you know, this'll work if we, if educate, educate, educate.

Zack G. (31:47):

Yeah, I get it. So it's, so what, you're what you're counseling for these folks that are just starting to learn. This is investing time in communicating appropriately with the client. The pet owner actually pays off and is a big part of running the business. It sounds like to me,

Dr. Smith (32:03):

That's what I pays big time. Right. Pays off big time. Yeah.

Zack G. (32:06):

So it's counterintuitive. Cuz think about it. If you're, if you're running a bit, you know, the, the traditional vet model, if you will, without criticizing anyone is, you know, kind of always been volume focused, right? Mm-Hmm <affirmative>, it's like get as many dogs and cats through the door so that we can bill, bill, bill. I mean, and there's, you know, that's, you know, it's not necessarily bad or good or whatever. We're not here to judge that. But to hear you sort of turn that upside down in that actually more time spent with a client in educating the client about the next steps in care, the next appointments and why they're important, the long term, you know, prognosis, if you will, of taking, you know, taking this protocol and moving forward with it turns out that time spent, there is a huge payback is not what I've heard is, you know, taught from sort of a operational perspective to mm-hmm <affirmative> folks that are starting their practices. Nobody thinks that they think the other version of them.

Dr. Smith (33:13):

Yeah. Yeah. Even my technicians. I mean, it's kind of scare that I try not to, but I'll have a case it's kind of tough and I'll get blood work and I'm like, oh, it is a recheck. And I'm like, oh, so Ashley, look at this anemia what's happened here. And she's like, you know, Deering the headlights, but we talk about it. And then when she goes into the room and talk about the clients and you know, after I've said that it's improving, this is blah, blah, blah. And she asks my technicians, some things she can, she feels even more comfortable. You know, why is Smith stopping this? But not this. And she's like, I'll get her in here to explain that to you. But this is, this is pop. This is why mm-hmm <affirmative>, you don't need fluffy. Doesn't need this. This has gotten better, but we need to stay on this because of this.

Dr. Smith (33:50):

So everybody, I wanna make sure everybody's educated CE for my staff is like super important. It's an investment. That's well worth it. Yeah. I mean, they're not just cute little, you know, puppy holders. Right. They really need to understand. So they need to answer really, you know, some, some deep questions they're not prescribing, they're not diagnosing that. None of that kind of stuff, but they need to kind of understand. I mean, Chinese herbs are kind of tough. I mean, you just throw a name out <inaudible> and nobody knows what that means, but my, my technicians do. And they can explain that, explain little, some basics to clients, which takes some time off of me and pressure off of me too. Sure. So

Zack G. (34:26):

You, they can ask you, you figured out how to delegate some of this. Yeah. But also it's, it's about delegating for you, but it's also about having an educated staff. It

Dr. Smith (34:33):

Sounds like. Yeah. And my, and whenever we get a card, you know, for whatever and, you know, cuz unfortunately we do have, because of what we do, we do have a higher geriatric population. So we do have a lot more deaths in euthanasias but the card is always specific for technicians too. Dr. Smith and Ashley and Liz. I really thank you guys because you really helped me out. It's not Dr. Smith. Right. So, and it's a, it brings them up. They feel great about what they're doing. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> they're you know, so it's, it's, it's a win-win yeah. I

Zack G. (35:04):

Mean, that sounds real. I think, I think it's a gold nugget here. We've kind of uncovered today in our conversation that, you know, turns out, you spending more time listening and teaching and educating and guiding clients actually can be a big boost in your business, you know, and the financial side of the whole situation, because you get higher retention, closer relationships with your client, more loyalty, more follow through, like you say, or treatment compliance, I think was the word you used. Yeah. So official for sure.

Dr. Smith (35:38):

<Laugh> yeah. I mean, and clients tell me all the time, like they, their dog has been, the dog is on heart and medications or has heart stuff. And I'm like, this is what this heart drug does. And this is what this heart drug does. And I'm gonna supplement it with these, these, these, and they like, Fluffy's been on this for five years and no one's ever explained that to me. Wow. And I'm like, well, we're gonna one forward. And this is what these do. This is how it helps the contractility of the heart. And this is how this helps this mm-hmm <affirmative> and now they're kind of like, oh, now, now I really wanna, I mean a $90, you know, if you're doing, you know, 60, 90, maybe a hundred dollars appointments really fast, right. By the time they're outta my room, it's 300 to $400. Right. So, because I, I explained what all these things were and they're like, yeah, I'll start that. Yeah. I'll start that. Yeah. I wanna do that. Right. Cause I explained what it's for and what it's doing and why it's important. Right.

Zack G. (36:26):

I got it. So yeah. The meaning of all of this, which is a little tricky mm-hmm <affirmative> okay. I got a pop quiz. Crazy question for you. <Laugh> sure. So I have a cat. I, I actually lost my dog on day. He had a, yeah, it was sad. He had a, he was fine until he wasn't, which is actually probably the way I want to go, honestly. But anyways, he had a a tumor on his

Dr. Smith (36:48):

Spleen that his spleen angio sarcoma.

Zack G. (36:51):

Yeah. And it just burst, I guess, basically mm-hmm <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative> so he just was bleeding internally. Yeah. And you know, there's no, I, it I'm sure it's just completely untreatable. And so anyways, but he was, he was an adopted dog. We didn't know. He could have been 10, he could have been 12. He could have been 13, you know, I'm sure he was 10. And anyways, but, so that was sad. That was Monday. And then yesterday my cat had urinary tract infection. So the op quiz question is, does acupuncture have any application in, in the UTI world for cats? <Laugh>

Dr. Smith (37:28):

Well, acupuncture can manage pain. Okay. So it can help with that. But that's where our also our, our alternative modalities work. And when is it a male cat? Yes. Yeah.

Zack G. (37:40):

And he he's Spain and neutered and he's an indoor outdoor cat. He's got free room with the property. He's got a ton of flowing water. We've got a stream on the property and all that. So he is,

Dr. Smith (37:50):

You know, so one of the big things, this is, I, I tell people this is male block cat season in the fall. When it goes from very humid for you, you're probably pretty dry, but here it's a bigger deal. Okay. From humidity to dry cats, don't hydrate themselves very well. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> so especially male cats are, have a higher chance of having UTIs and or blockages. Right. Crystal blockages mm-hmm <affirmative>. But yeah, acupuncture can help with pain itself, but I laser the urethra, I give them something called salt Palmetto, which they used to be a big thing for men and prostates, but actually helps the in, in inner urethra insides to bring down the swelling. Okay. and usually I don't even have to take 'em to surgery to unblock them. I give them some, you know, anti-inflammatory so conventional side. I do some herbs SA Palmetto mm-hmm <affirmative> I do a laser and probably within half an hour to an hour they're unblocked.

Zack G. (38:42):

That's amazing. So you're able to avoid surgery.

Dr. Smith (38:45):

Yeah. So most of the, most of the CA I mean, if I had 10 cats that all needed surgery, I'm gonna air quote it. I could probably unblock 70 of 'em. That's amazing. 60 to 70% of 'em. They probably do need you, they probably do need an antibiotics. They probably have a big old fat urinary tract infection. Yeah. That needs to be addressed.

Zack G. (39:04):

My cat had a little bit of blood in his urine.

Dr. Smith (39:08):

Yeah. There's a Chinese herb specifically for blood in the urine. And it's the nominal. I mean, there's so much stuff that when we put it together, people I'm kind of like people like two days later, like, oh, you know, little Skippy's doing great now. And I'm like, great. You know, what if Skippy went to, you know, so and so other they'd still be in the hospital with a catheter in, but you know, two days later Skippy doing great. That's

Zack G. (39:32):

Amazing. But that, well, you know, and this is like, and I'm not, I like, again, I wanna Ize anybody obviously have my local vet and we took the cat down there and yes, he got antibiotics, but I'll have to say there wasn't any of this type of discussion. So, you know, I figured I'd hit you with it. And it also is, you know, it, it it's relevant because this is a great sort of scenario type question. And I, I would love to have figured out some other, you know, th I mean, I don't think there's, it's probably unavoidable that he needed antibiotics. So I'm not, I don't have any rub with that. But as the pet owner in ongoing way, what can I do to help this cat not have, this is his second one in his short three years of life. Yeah. And you know, it sucks for him, but it also, I didn't really appreciate him peeing on the floor either.

Dr. Smith (40:24):

Yeah. But he's telling you something's wrong. Yeah. If he's peeing the L box, everything looks fine to me. But if he's peeing on the floor, he's like, that's his red flag of, I can't talk human, but I can talk human by peeing on the floor or your bed or your laundry. Cuz it's not, was not right. Oh gosh. And so they're like Mo fluffy must be really mad at me because they're peeing on my bed. I'm like, Fluffy's trying to tell you something is wrong. Okay. and I, that's a big thing that I learned with horses. People like, oh, this horse is being a jerk and blah, blah, blah. I'm like, let me adjust and put some needles in it. It's in completely different horse. It's painful. Right. It's painful. So yeah, you can't, I mean, I L like no judgment on other veterinarians.

Dr. Smith (40:59):

They know what they know. We all, we have our thing, we have our book, we have our box. Right. Totally fine. Whatever. but if he's doing it more than once, then you gotta look at the diet and you gotta look at the hydration status. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. So if he's making crystals, if he's getting blocker, having these UTIs, there's something in the diet. That's not working for him. Right. Just same. What is that? You know, people can't do lactose and whatever. He's probably creating more crystals or whatever's going on. And his cats are true. Carnivores. Their diet is supposed to be birds and rodents and virgins of rodents for 80% water. How much do they drink? Usually at home. Not a lot. You give 'em this big, old pretty fountain. They really don't drink that much. Right. So you need to hydro chemistry class. I used to be an environmental chemist before I went into vet school. Okay. The solution to pollution is dilution. Okay.

Zack G. (41:46):

I like it. I, I buy that one,

Dr. Smith (41:48):

Flush that bacteria out, flush that grit out. They need a moisture diet. Okay.

Zack G. (41:53):

So, so you, so, so I'm hearing right now that I probably should put some wet food or some raw meat food or something in this cat's diet to increase his hydration.

Dr. Smith (42:07):

Yes. You can start off. If, if he's on dry for right now, you can take a step up and go to canned, at least go to wick. Yeah. Okay. With cats though, they're very texture taste and smell specific. So you have to do it really, really slow. Okay. It's difficult. It's, it's much more difficult with cats, dog, puppy. Windows is socialization. When they're little cat windows, when they're, when they're kittens is food, if they're raised on dry food, it's really hard to get 'em off the sugar. Oh interesting. So you, it's gonna probably be a very slow, and I have clients that have like the four cats and two of the cats are like, yeah. Wet food. Then there's the one holdout. Then there's the one that's like three months later. And finally you got <laugh>. Yeah. Right. 20 birds to switch over to wet food. Got it. It's gonna probably be, definitely do it slowly. And you may have to try different kinds, but more moisture is gonna be better for the cat's kidneys and the bladder all the way around.

Zack G. (42:59):

Be better. Cause it's, you know, I was a long time ago and I've had several dogs over the years, but at some point somebody had told me, you know, wet food can become a tooth problem for dogs. And I'm not sure this is what,

Dr. Smith (43:12):

I'm not sure it's true or not. But every night you go to bed, eat a Pesco don't brush your teeth for the whole week. Yeah. At night before you go to bed, just, just eat the Pesco and go to bed like that. And tell me how well that biscoti cleaned your teeth. <Laugh> how many dogs do you see sitting there? Like here's the kibble. Yeah. And here's a kibble. No, they inhale it. Not this whole, like, and it's not hard. There is what diet on the market. I'm not gonna, you know, that is made for teeth health. Okay. Because it's so hard that the tooth has to like jam through, you know? So it gets from the tooth end to the gum line. Okay. There's one tooth diet. Well, if that's the, that that's diet on the market for teeth, then all the other diets are, are not really helping the teeth.

Dr. Smith (43:58):

Right. Right. So it's really, and that's the other thing with, with Del dilution, again, the bacteria feed off the carbs, right? High car, your dry food is all high carb. Okay. And you have, I see, I could tell people straight off, you know, an older, a middle aged dog, then I'm like, oh, your dog's on dry food. How'd you know, cause the teeth are terrible. Okay. Because that bacteria feed off that carbohydrate and there was much more tarter from that. And they're not chew. They're not, it's not scraping the teeth. They're not sitting there in

Zack G. (44:25):

Chewy things. Yeah. I like my, my dog that had the cleanest teeth was my rotweiler and the main reason he had awesome teeth, they were like, literally whiter than like our teeth mm-hmm <affirmative> because that dog spent his whole life with a rope in his mouth.

Dr. Smith (44:39):

Yeah. So in, in the wild, those dogs, aren't don't have bad. I mean, they're eating tendons, bone, all this kind of stuff. And I'm not even gonna go there cuz that's a huge controversy, but yes, they, you know, and you, I can tell when a cat is a hundred, right. All the way their teeth are beautiful. Ah because they're chewing that little bird or that little, Chimo not gonna all the stuff. Yeah. I got it. And yeah. And their teeth are beautiful and in the wild, they don't have really tarter. They may have a broken tooth cuz you know, the Wolf, a moose leg. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But they don't have tarter. And it's really in the same thing with us. I mean, with the K has gone up because his sugar with extra sugar and a side of sugar, got it. Coming from our carbohydrates. Oh that's so bad.

Zack G. (45:17):

So bad. So

Dr. Smith (45:17):

Bad. Yeah. And it's, it is. And, and this, again, more moisture you're gonna dilute out the bacteria. It goes to the, the stomach acid, which never goes past one or two mm-hmm <affirmative>, that's what it's for, you know, fluffy eating that dead, whatever on the side of the road, full of bacteria, that stomach acid is meant to kill all that stuff. Right. So it's gonna kill that acid. That's gonna kill that bacteria for the mouth that gets pulled down there from the, I got it. Okay. More, more moisture, more moisture. More moisture. Yes.

Zack G. (45:41):

Okay. Well, so that answers a huge amount of questions for me <laugh> well it does, you know, I mean, Hey, you know, we're trying to do the best we can, you know, as it owner, right. Pets are typically trying to do the right thing. I think wouldn't you agree with that? Most

Dr. Smith (45:57):

I totally, totally. And I, especially when I hear them, I change to this better food and I'm like there, I mean the people who should get the most, the, the best paycheck or advertisers because they make these little kibble things with the, the corn of the sweet and the, the green peas and stuff. It's so pretty. Oh, I mean, they're selling us, they're selling good. They're selling.

Zack G. (46:21):

Of course they are. You know, I talked to my daughter yesterday about that specific issue that like pet toys and pet food and all that, it's actually marketed of a humanizing strategy. It's like, what would a person wanna buy their pet? It's never, the question is never, what does the pet need or what's best for the pet? The it's always, what will the person buy? So you're right. They put the picture with like, it looks like all this like quote unquote balanced diet in a imagery mm-hmm <affirmative> and people were like, oh, I I know colors. Yep. Yeah. But do

Dr. Smith (46:57):

You think Fido really cares if it's yellow, green and no, of course

Zack G. (47:00):

Not red, of course not. But you know, hopefully, hopefully people are starting to see through that stuff. I don't know. And I'm sure that your clients are because they've got you talking to 'em and I've learned a lot today and you know, I think it's just goes back to sort of all the stuff we know right now is that, you know, our world is full of, you know, a lot of toxins and our food supply is less than ideal and it's affecting our animals as well as our ourselves. And, and we can do better, I think is pretty much the summary of all that. Yeah.

Dr. Smith (47:28):

Yeah. I tell people, our animals are the Canary and the coal mine. I mean, what's happening with them when you get a three year old dog with liver cancer, something's not right. Right. So

Zack G. (47:37):

We need to start looking at a lot of different things, our food sources, water sources, you know? Yeah. Everything everything's giant power lines over the neighborhood. Yeah. Nothing and none of that can be helping. I agree with, with you. So yeah. Well, Dr. Colleen, I want to thank you for being on the show today and I wanna thank you for talking to me about my cat and and, and, and also all the business wisdom and sort of the big turnarounds with time spent with clients and just all the cool stuff that I think are, you know, relevant for people that are thinking about doing things in their prior, his plus pet owners. And tell, tell me, tell everybody here on the show, if they want to come see you, how do they get a hold of you down in Chattanooga there in Tennessee?

Dr. Smith (48:19):

I guess it'd be easiest just to go to the website, Chattanooga holistic vet.com and then has our address has the phone numbers has all our Twitters and the tweets and the Facebooks and stuff, which I don't really deal with daily, but my 24 year olds do it. Got it. Cuz they're all about the picture. So I love it. Got it's great.

Zack G. (48:38):

Yeah. It's awesome. Yeah. That's awesome. Okay, cool. Well thank thanks for being on the show. I had a blast today and for those of you that are listening, please join us on the next episode of practice somatic and I'm sure we've got another guest. That's gonna be just as much fun as Dr. Colleen with us today. <Laugh> we'll see you next time. You Zach. Thank you.

Intro (48:57):

Thank you for listening to this episode of practice home matting, subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss any future episodes for additional help and resources for your practice. Visit Zach greenfield.com to connect with his Zach visit Zach greenfield.com/zg.